Cathy: Do you have to force girls a little bit? I’m Cathy Vartuli from http://theintimacydojo.com/
Reid: I’m Reid Mihalko from http://reidaboutsex.com/. Give me context Cath, give me context.
Cathy: Some…someone was talking about that he…he had a date with someone he wanted to explore something sexually and hadn't had they hadn't been sexual before and he was asking about being sexual and she responded you have to force girls a little and he was concerned about the consent, the consent which I think is a really good thing and I thought that it might be useful to talk about because I think there is a lot of stereotypes out there that yeah the women are supposed to say no, no, no and the guy supposed to keep trying until they like “Hah, I’ve overcome.”
Reid: So, thank you for writing in. I'm just going to jump to what I hope this is, right? Because you shouldn't force anybody to do anything ever because it will it's just not that's not how you leave the campsite better than you found it. However, I'm going to reinterpret this I'm going to assume that the person who shared about being forced doesn't have all their contacts
Cathy: And maybe it's kinky for them or
Reid: and sex geek yeah what their what I hope they're saying is, it turns me on to be forced a little and now we have a conversation of “Oh, how do you like to be forced?”
Reid: And…and how can I do that for you like…like now it's about mindful or conscious seduction or mindful consensual coercion like which I get why that can be a turn-on
Reid: but I'm going to tell you as a sex geek you do not force people ever and that in having a short conversation, I'm pointing at the…at the email here in having a short conversation with that person to check in about “What do you mean by that? Is it a turn-on for you?” And for them they would be like “No, like you actually have to force people” and you know I'd be like “Flag it's my flag like flag on the clay. Danger roll Robins and danger…danger. Do not proceed, do not proceed” because that to me is like “Oh, if that's actually your worldview, I don't know that it's…it's safe for me to play with you.”
Reid: because like if that would just be such a flag.
Cathy: Yeah and there's no consent if that that's not consent. He knows what his concern was like how do you…consent is really important, how do I establish consent in that
Reid: but again like for somebody who doesn't know the distinction between what's erotic like what's turning their brain on
Reid: and this is titillating or for somebody who just thinks “No, this is society like women are supposed to withhold sex and…and men are supposed to force us to have like…”
Cathy: Well, it's a rape culture that's what
Cathy: a lot of people had been brought up with unfortunately. Yeah and I think that you know getting something that someone’s cons…if this was a kink like some like a somebody that turns that person that person on saying something like is it like do you like to be forced for sex or like getting something that there's a verbal yes to you
Cathy: and then actually defining like what does that look like and what is your safe word and using some of the…the consent boundaries that the BDSM community uses like what where…where is the line there in finding a safe container to play?
Reid: So if you ever run into this situation and you're doing your due diligence and having these conversations and the other person just rolls their eyes and they're like “Oh my god, can't we just do this? Why do we have to talk about it?” That is your signal to pull the plug on that fucking situation.
Reid: If you can talk it to death, I think you're better off. I mean not that you have to be like “I’m going to see if I can break my record and talk about this for six hours.”
Cathy: And then there's no sex because we're taught a little bit
Reid: but what a lot of people what I run into is people want things to be organic which means they're uncomfortable about being explicit usually, right? Not always but for the most part people are like “Oh my god I mean why do you talk about these things so much?” I’m like “You know why? Because I want to create a really safe experience that fucking rocks. I'm not trying to bore you. I'm trying to assess whether you're safe for me to play with.”
Reid: “If this is a good idea or not” and for people who can't get, get patient or at least you know be patient for that process, what it means is that that it's dangerous even though I get that it might be a turn on let’s not talk about it at all, right? I get that that's a turn-on but like we have to talk about not talking about it at all.
Cathy: Well, one thing if…if that was if that's the case like not just having it to be like jumping in talk about it another time, set up a surprise a surprise date and then Friday at 8 p.m. or I'm going to come in and
Sorry but are you blind to what women fantasize and masturbate to and buy books about (e.g. propelling 50 shades to the highest selling book of all time and where the hardware stores ran out of the supplies that they bought)? Many (not all) want to be forced, ravished, taken, etc. in some way (not necessarily BDSM ways but even in regular sex) in spontaneous ways and when the mood is right, etc. etc. But they of course want this in a way that pleases them (good) and not in a way that displeases them (which therefore would not be consensual, etc. etc.). So it's a complex topic. And you will never get anywhere by oversimplifying to the point where the former and the latter is all labelled "the bad way to do it". The onus is on women to come up with answers about what a man is supposed to do. Men try. But "read my mind" is not the answer. But neither is a 3 day conversation that goes into excruciating detail and kills the mood. So far the best answer has been established by the BDSM community for decades and seems to work pretty well.
1) Do you want to play? Yes.
2) Do you want to discuss any particulars (and this may go so far but will not be a 3 day long seminar going into enough excruciating detail).. hence the need for the next step.
3) Okay.. we will now play. You say "Red" to stop. Or "yellow" to go easier/slower "Green" if you want something to not stop. After red you can suggest something stopping entirely or suggest another activity or just ask the man to try something else. Up to you depending on what you feel like at that moment. That's it. That's what consent looks like. It's called Risk Aware Consensual Kink (RACK). The man knows through common sense not to expose you to something he knows you will not like (e.g. something you discussed that you don't want).
The quintessential problem is that women don't know if they really like something until after it has happened. Plus discussions about what they want will be laced with things they think they will like (but turn out they don't in reality... because fantasy does not often equal reality) and things they weren't that aware of may in fact turn out to be surprisingly good for them. Discussing it with them beforehand therefore has limited utility (plus they will find it annoying and like pressuring them to agree to things when they don'[t even know what the good answer for them is.). A huge amount of all these issues about "sexual misconduct" hinges on this fact that you have to have the thing be in the past before they make a ruling about if it was okay or not. RACK is the best that can be done to solve this problem.
A few months ago, towards the end of a date, when I verbally expressed my attraction and desire to get sexual with the girl, this is exactly what she told me.
I was stunned, immediately raised a red flag asked when I get to establish consent.
Apparently, she wanted to have consent "organic" and not explicit.
This was way beyond my comfort level and I mediately pulled the plug.
I expressed my desire to talk about all this, sober at some other time.
The follow-up talk never happened.
I am glad that I did not proceed.
I am happy that this was my instinctive reaction in that moment.
If someone is not eager to share intimacy with me consciously I am not interested.
What are you saying? That you think she might have called the police if she decided the organic decisions you made in an attempt to read her mind weren't 100% perfect for her. In other words your concern should have been for you. Not for her.
Smart, Bogdan. I think so much of this comes from people being taught that people should know what we mean, rather than using words and courage to own our desires and ask for what turns us on. Its the very thing I want most to change in the world.
Yes- for us as well... And we want to reach people who are actually asking that question, Avid. Because its asked too often, and too many people confuse asking for a specific act in the bedroom that is consensual, vs advocating forcing people. Upgrades are welcome!
This is a myth that patriarchal rape culture promotes. She didn’t say “I have to be forced a little.” She generalized over all women. This conversation is a waste without confronting her internalized misogyny.
Sorry but maybe all the bashing of men should stop and the shaming lectures should be given to women till they get their heads straight about what they want. This should be done until A) a set of clear guidance for men as to what they should do can be provided. Either that or (B) the whole onus of
- building attraction
- planning dates
- taking the next step and the next step (e.g. touching an arm, then giving a kiss, then getting closer , etc. )all the way up to erotic intimacy must always be done by women and not men. I mention this not because I think women want this, but to show that is the only solution left if you cannot start getting a handle on this question.
Internalized misogyny is not a blanket reason to be let off the hook from doing this and put all the blame on men. IF this is all so important, then it behooves women to make an effort to solve the problem. Think what you want. Then clear choices and tell men what it is. EITHER A) or B).
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